VR6 or Rallye tranny? Which is the strongest one?

[Vegard]

I hope someone can help me with a question:

Is the angeldrive and the gearbox stronger in a VR6 than in a Rallye?

I’m going with a 500 hp alcohol engine in my Mk2 Syncro and I’m conserned about the strenght of the transmission…

It’s possible to use the clutch housing from a 4 cyl. tranny and put it together with the VR6 tranny.

http://www.cft-motortec.com/golf3.php

But is the angeldrive and the internals in the VR6 tranny stronger than the Rallye parts?

Hope you can help me!

Thanks!

Best regards

Vegard Holum
Norway

[1.8TsyncroB3]

The Rallye & VR6 transmissions are essentially the same internally. They are strong enough to take 300-350hp, but 500hp will be too much on a stock gearbox. Even with Quaiffe internals, I think 500hp will be exceeding the limits.

The angle drive on a Golf Rallye contains gears with a ration of 20/21, the VR6 angle drive contains gears with ratios of 16/21. It is rumoured that the VR6 angle drive will handle more power, but I have my doubts. The angle drive housing on the VR6 is aluminum and most Rallye have an Iron housing. This makes the Rallye housing a bit stronger, but heavier.

Another issue regarding the angle drive ratios is the tooth contact area. The 20/21 ratio uses gears of near identical size which provides for the most tooth engagement (contact area, or number of engaged teeth) The 16/21 ratio employs one gear that is smaller than the other which reduces the contact area due to the smaller gear. This reduced contact area means that for a given amount of power applied, the force per square inch of gear tooth contact surface will be higher for the 16/21 ratio than the 20/21 ratio. This higher force can increase wear and stress on the parts, possibly resulting in easier breakage.

We have not heard much regarding VR6 syncro parts breakage simply because fewer VR6 syncros were built & sold. The 4 cyl Golf Rallye uses the same Gearbox, Angle Drive and Rear diff as the Passat G60 syncro. These syncros were produced in much higher quantities, so we see more of them being modified, and therefore broken. One can easily see how VR6 parts would be rumoured to be better just because we hear of less parts breakage.

My opinion is that the 4 cyl Cable shift gearbox, Angle drive, and rear diff parts are just as strong as the VR6 parts. They are good for 300hp if driven reasonably, and if a failure does occur, the 4 cyl parts are easier to find.

[Chris S]

You took the words right out of my mouth []
this may also help http://www.vwsyncro.co.uk/data/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1653

[no such user]

you want haldex, btw i’m haveing thoughts that it may be possible to make it control haldex soon

[Vegard]

It is three Golfs that I know of that have powerful engines with the VR6 engine and trannys, the EIP-Golf, http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0103tur_volkswagen_golf_vr6/
Ed’s Rallye Golf, http://www.ngpracing.com/gallery/view.php?gid=11
and Keith Risebrough’s Mk2, http://www.jkm.org.uk/vr6turbo.htm#

All of them have approx 450 hp.

[Vegard]

By the way, do anyone who know the specs for Spyros Panopoulos’ Mk2? Or any other Golf Syncro of this caliber?

[no such user]

they all have vr6’s

[GOLF1398]

I spoke yesterday with Spyros and he said me that he has not enough time for his car, but he thinks crazy things for his project, I hope to see it soon in the road.

[Vegard]

quote:

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Originally posted by GOLF1398

I spoke yesterday with Spyros and he said me that he havent enough time for his car but he thinks crazy things for his project,i hope to see it soon in the road.

---

Since you know him, could you ask him abot the specs for drivetrain and suspention on his car. Both today’s specs and future plans are interesting.

[Vegard]

quote:

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Originally posted by dannyp

they all have vr6’s

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Yes they have. The interesting part is how much power the VR6 tranny can handle.

[VR6SyncroMark2]

any info that people have regarding haldex would be interesting (specially finished conversions and how they have been achieved).

English only for me pls

Rob

[1.8TsyncroB3]

The 3 cars referenced above with approx 450hp on a VR6 syncro system are definitely interesting. I’ve read about them before. My question is, are they willing to talk about how many parts they have broken? Is their car driven competitively? Dyno sheets are great, so are photos, but how often is the car in the shop having an angle drive or rear diff replaced? This is the dark side of high HP Syncros that few people write about. The internet is full of people who like to bragg about great achievements. Broken parts are not something most people bragg about openly.

Every well known VW custom shop that has initially tried a high HP syncro set-up has moved on to other projects. The main reason being that the system just can’t support the power. If the syncro system was capable of reliably handling high HP, it would still be a popular system among the big builders.

To enjoy a reliable Syncro equipped VW, you must recognise and respect your car’s limitations. Exceed the limits and you have a broken car. What do you want, a car to drive, or a car to fix? For me, the ultimate reward to building a modified VW is spending more time driving it than I spent building it.

(I guess I’ll have my Red Wagon for ever! [][:p])

[1.8TsyncroB3]

For much more detailed info on Haldex, you should check the VWVortex forums. (sorry if I’m plugging another forum, but it is syncro related[^])
They have been discussing Syncro to Haldex conversions as well as a controller that actually works without the complicated Haldex sensors, wiring and computer. there is even a video of an Audi TT at the drags with the controller installed.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/

The Syncro/4motion/Quattro Forum can be found here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=742

[ld50]

well said.

[ld50]

> (I guess I’ll have my Red Wagon for ever! )

lolol

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